Register
This forum uses cookies
This forum makes use of cookies to store your login information if you are registered, and your last visit if you are not. Cookies are small text documents stored on your computer; the cookies set by this forum can only be used on this website and pose no security risk. Cookies on this forum also track the specific topics you have read and when you last read them. Please confirm whether you accept or reject these cookies being set.

A cookie will be stored in your browser regardless of choice to prevent you being asked this question again. You will be able to change your cookie settings at any time using the link in the footer.


Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Welsh Assembly Misinformation
06-01-2014, 12:22 PM
Post: #1
Welsh Assembly Misinformation
On December 14th, in response to the fiasco that was the debate on eCigarettes that took place on 11th December by the Welsh Assembly at Cardiff Bay, I decided to write a rather angry letter to the postulating politicians who are supposed to be acting on my behalf as a Welsh tax-payer.

I decided to direct the letter at Carwyn Jones - First Minister. I have yet to receive a response from him.

If, and when, I do receive a response, I will post it up here. As the letter is cut and pasted from a Word document, much of the formatting has been lost by pasting it in here. However, the contents remains the same. Hopefully this is legible to you all.

However, so that you know what I wrote and how I argued my point, I provide a transcript of what Carwyn Jones will have received:

Dear Mr Carwyn Jones,
I have been following the ongoing debates at the Assembly on the subject of eCigarettes and am extremely concerned at the misinformation that is emanating from your organisation in regard to the subject. I am particularly alarmed at the SPECULATION emanating from Public Health Wales in regard to eCigarettes.

I should not need to remind you that all AM’s are elected by the Welsh public to act on the behalf of the Welsh public, and to look after the interests of the Welsh public.

What you are not elected to do is to misinform and alarm the Welsh public with speculation and misinformation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, what I am hearing emanating from the Welsh Assembly on the subject of ecigarettes is exactly that.

I am particularly concerned that Public Health Wales, run by medical professionals who should know better, appear not to have properly researched the available information before making their statements. As a result, we see what I consider to be unfounded and inaccurate advice that is wide of the mark and easily refuted.

We can all agree that smoking is detrimental to the health and well-being of anyone who indulges in the habit. Indeed, you will find few (if any) eCigarette users who would argue that point. eCigarette users are proponents of the product for the very reason that they recognise the dangers of tobacco smoking and want a safer alternative that improves their health while still being able to enjoy nicotine.

My Background
I was a smoker for almost 30 years. I was not, by any definition, a ‘heavy’ smoker as I tended to smoke ‘light’ mentholated cigarettes and only then at a rate of around 10-per day. Three years ago, I suffered a Myocardial Infarction that required two stents to be inserted in the arteries feeding into my heart to overcome the clotting. I was told that I needed to quit smoking. I tried many different ways to quit smoking, from NRT to chewing nicorette gum to cold turkey. No matter what I tried, I always ended up back on the tobacco cigarettes eventually. Despite knowing that it was killing me, I simply could not give them up.

Then 18 months ago, I decided to have a go with these new ‘ecigarettes’ that I had heard so much about. I have not looked back since. I am now 18 months ‘smoke-free’. My overall health has improved to previously unimaginable levels. I no longer have a ‘smokers cough’, I don’t stink of cigarettes, my lung capacity is now immense and I feel better and healthier than ever.

I will admit that 4 weeks in from starting on ecigarettes, I found a tobacco cigarette in a jacket that I had not worn for some time. So, as it was only one cigarette, I decided that I would smoke it to ‘get it out of the way’. I have to say that from the moment I lit that cigarette and inhaled, I was REPULSED. I really could not fathom how on earth I had ever smoked a cigarette in the first place. I did take a second ‘drag’ just to be sure, but as it almost made me sick, it was simply discarded. I have never touched a cigarette, nor had any further desire to do so, since.

And there was more.

Having switched to ecigarettes, the time came when I needed to use it when I went out for a drink in my local pub. I first checked with the landlord that he was happy for me to vape my ecigarette in the bar (which he was) and proceeded to enjoy my ecigarette with my Guinness without having to continually exit to the cold outside. Most of the regulars in the pub were surprised at the ecigarette at first, but soon realised that I was not smoking and it was nothing to worry about. Very soon, I started to get curious enquiries from the smokers in the bar who noticed that I no longer joined them outside and instead sat vaping at the bar. Over time, their curiosity deepened to the point that they wished to try the ecigarette. 18 months on and I am no longer the sole vaper in my local pub. The vast majority of the ‘smoker’ friends I had have now also switched to the ecigarette and enjoying the same benefits to their health that I am. Banishing (or banning) the ecigarette would mean that smokers would remain unaware of the ecigarette and the benefits it could bring to health, and they would simply continue smoking. I would have thought you would welcome any opportunity to see the Welsh public moving to a healthier lifestyle. Without seeing me vaping my ecigarette and having the opportunity to learn about it and its benefits first-hand, many of these former smokers would have remained enslaved to their damaging habit (as I had once been). Surely this is a benefit you could appreciate ?


So Why Are You Trying To Force Everyone Back To Smoking ?

Yes, you did read that right. Both yourselves and Public Health Wales are pretty much forcing those who cannot quit nicotine to continue smoking tobacco due to your policies and misinformation. You are making it harder for smokers to switch to the benefits of ecigarettes. Indeed, at EU level, they are trying to BAN the ecigarette outright.

Why ban or persecute the ecigarette yet allow the sale of tobacco which is KNOWN to cause so much harm ?

The policy simply does not make sense. Especially when there are so many distinguished and learned health and science professionals who are openly extolling the benefits, and virtues, of promoting a strong and vibrant ecigarette culture (more about that later).


eCigarette Facts

So, for your benefit, I am going to bullet point a number of FACTS below. Some you may already be aware of. Others I suspect you are not aware of as you are being advised by Public Health Wales who have patently FAILED to research this subject in any real depth. If they had, they would not be making the statements we are currently seeing:

• Nicotine: Contrary to popular belief, nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine (and I am sure you enjoy drinking coffee products). Whilst nicotine can kill, research has proven that it would actually require approx 1500mg of Nicotine (taken in one go) to actually kill anyone. Whilst both cigarettes and ecigarettes contain nicotine, this is where the similarity ends. When you VAPE an ecigarette all you get is vapour containing nicotine. eCigarettes DO NOT contain tar, carbon monoxide or any other of the dangerous chemicals found in normal cigarettes. Furthermore, everybody consumes nicotine in one form or another as it is found in foods in larger quantities than either an ecigarette or tobacco cigarette provide. If you eat (for example) tomatoes, potatoes, cauliflower or aubergines, then you are consuming nicotine
• Vapour does not linger in the air as long as tobacco smoke so there is a far lower potential to expose anyone else to what is being exhaled. Also ecigarettes do not emit any vapour when they are not in use (unlike a lit tobacco cigarette) and the toxic chemicals found in cigarette smoke are either completely absent or at greatly reduced levels in an ecigarette
• An ecigarette is NOT a medicine. It is not marketed as a medicine and neither are any claims made that it is a ‘quit’ device (though I am sure that a great many people have used them as a way of completely quitting nicotine). Therefore it is not necessary to regulate them as a medicine. However, the sale and manufacture of ecigarettes are already covered by a vast array of current legislation
• eCigarettes do NOT contain tobacco and therefore are NOT a tobacco product
• eLiquid (the substance placed into an ecigarette and heated to produce the vapour inhaled) comes in great varieties of flavours and strength. Some eLiquids contain nicotine quantities as high as 50mg all the way down to no nicotine at all. I personally vape eLiquid with only 6mg of nicotine. The variety of strengths and flavours are the main reason why most users successfully switch to ecigarettes and completely abstain from smoking. They simply find the strength and flavour most pleasing to themselves and find them an extremely effective harm-reduction alternative to smoking.
• They are NOT a gateway to smoking. Vaping is such a pleasant experience that anyone trying a cigarette after it would be repulsed by the taste of a tobacco cigarette.
• The ecigarette industry as a whole has a code of ethics that forbids them from either marketing, or selling, their products to minors. It is a strictly over-18 product.
• Ecigarettes do NOT normalise smoking behaviours (if there is such a thing). The vast majority of rigs and setups that most ecigarettes users engage for their vaping habit bear no resemblance to cigarettes in any way whatsoever. I will happily show you what I use to demonstrate this. The ONLY resemblance to smoking is the vapour exuded. As stated above, the vapour does NOT contain any of the chemicals associates with smoking other than nicotine (which we have already established is no more harmful than caffeine).


Now let us look at some of the ‘findings’ by Public Health Wales:

Flavours may appeal to children: I am sure that some flavours would appeal to children. However, those same flavours also appeal to ADULTS. You can also buy different flavoured alcoholic drinks too (for example), many of which are appealing to minors. But nobody is trying to ban those on this basis !!
Ecigarettes may hamper ongoing efforts to ‘denormalise’ smoking and smoking behaviours: Alternatively, it can be argued that persuading smokers to switch to ecigarettes will deliver a massive health bonus to the Welsh public by giving them a much reduced alternative to the damaging effects of smoking. This benefits not only the smoker, but also the friends and family around them who no longer have to put up with the effects of second hand smoke (as ecigarettes produce a vapour without the carcinogens present in smoke).
There is little evidence that ecigarettes help in quitting: As stated previously, no ecigarette user or manufacturer claims that they are a quitting aid (ironically it is Health Professionals who are the people who keep stating that). eCigarettes are simply a safer alternative to smoking.
Using behavioural support services like Stop Smoking Wales, which uses a range of tested nicotine replacement products, you are four times more likely to quit smoking than by willpower alone: Nicotine Replacement Therapies have a 94% FAILURE rate. The MAJORITY of users who switch to ecigarettes find no compulsion or urge to return to smoking
Public Health Wales apparently ‘examined’ evidence to come to their conclusions: Unfortunately, the only evidence I could see were second-hand sources and I saw no reference to any substantiated facts.
The amount of nicotine varies widely: Of course it does. They are different products. No two products work in exactly the same way. Should we ban alcohol because different drinks vary in alcohol content ?

As Public Health Wales referenced the BMA, you might also like the read the following open letter to the BMA which was published by a group of scientists who run a website called Sense About Science. What have the BMA got to hide ?

http://www.senseaboutscience.org/news.ph...cigarettes


And what did the Health Minister say ?

A study in the USA stated that ecigarette use amongst High-School students showed ecigarette use had doubled in the last year: I have seen that study too. What the study did NOT say is how many of those students were already smokers. Smoking is just as bad for the young as for adults. Those students using ecigarettes could just as well have been trying to abstain from an already established tobacco smoking habit as any adult. Why should young smokers not also have the opportunity to use ecigarettes as a way of abstaining from smoking ?
Big Tobacco companies are moving into the ecigarette market: Big Tobacco showed no interest in ecigarettes whatsoever until they realised just how big that market was becoming. They are now belatedly moving into that market but currently are small players in this space.
Big Tobacco companies are only moving into the market to make money: What a crazy statement to make. Of course they are looking to make money from it. What is the purpose of any commercial organisation other than to make money? That is how the world works. However, Big Pharmaceutical companies are no different. Yes, they make medicines to help people recover or cope with illnesses/diseases, but they do not do that out of the goodness of their hearts. They are also only in the market to make vast profits (they have shareholders too). It is also arguable that it is in their interests not to make absolute cures with their medicines as it would kill their own market. The only reason Big Pharma oppose ecigarettes is because ecigarettes are far more effective at smoking cessation than any of their products
eCigarette manufacturers welcomed the EU decision not to ban or regulate ecigarettes: They were not the only ones. Millions of ecigarette users across Europe also celebrated that decision. It is a freedom to choose
eCigarettes are being sold to minors: As stated previously, ecigarette vendors have a code of conduct against selling their products to minors. However, as with any industry, there will always be ‘rotten eggs’. There are plenty of instances of shopkeepers and pub landlords selling alcohol to minors too, despite it being illegal. However, there is a case for minors who are already smokers to be allowed access to ecigarettes as a way to help them quit smoking.
eLiquid contains Propylene Glycol which is also found in anti-freeze: Propylene Glycol can also be found in everyday household goods such as bar soap/body wash, mouthwash, shampoo, baking mixes, desserts, modified food starches, salad dressing, sauces, ointments, baby wipes, deodorants, gel cap pills and vitamins. Furthermore, recent research was presented during the annual congress of the European Association of Cardiovascular Imaging (EUROECHO 2013, Istanbul, Turkey) of a medical study which comprehensively proved that ecigarettes, contrary to tobacco, do NOT stiffen the arteries


I feel I should also remind you of two major events that took place in the 20th Century. Those events are World War 1 and World War 2.

Both World Wars were fought to protect our freedoms. Those freedoms include our Freedom Of Choice. That is, we have a right to choose how we live our lives and that includes our right to enjoy vaping ecigarettes. One of the major claims in the Ban on Smoking in Public Places was to protect non-smokers from inhaling second-hand smoke. As ecigarettes emit vapour without contaminates, this is no longer a consideration. The only constituent of any consequence emitted by an ecigarette is nicotine – and even that is minimal. As the entire population consumes nicotine in one form or another, whether through foods such as tomatoes or through smoking, the fact that an ecigarette MIGHT emit nicotine through the vapour is not a consideration.

Vaping ecigarettes does not force anything harmful on anyone else in the immediate surroundings of the vaper.

The Health Minister also stated that there are an estimated 80,000 users of ecigarettes in Wales. I would consider that to be a conservative estimate as thousands of smokers are quitting smoking tobacco cigarettes every day by converting to ecigarettes. It is a growing army that is exponentially multiplying. Ministers would do well to take notice of this as VAPERS ARE VOTERS.

The consensus among the online vaping forums are that the majority of users of ecigarettes would CHANGE THEIR VOTE TO PROTECT THEIR RIGHT TO USE ECIGARETTES. I am one of those people. I will NOT vote for any political party that tries to kill me by denying my right to use ecigarettes.

In regard to the Health Ministers comment on the proliferation of ecigarette companies and vendors, I would remind you that those companies ALL provide employment and that many of those companies are in Wales. Whether as manufacturers, distributors or vendors, they are also employers. To regulate these companies out of business does not make any political or commercial sense whatsoever. Jobs are hard enough to come by in Wales. The Welsh Assembly should be protecting existing jobs and promoting further growth in such companies that create jobs. This includes those jobs being created by the burgeoning ecigarette market.




The MHRA, BMA, WHO etc

The Health Minister in his speech also placed great emphasis on what bodies like the MHRA, the BMA and WHO have said in regard to ecigarettes. What he omitted to mention is the conflict of interest that exists in organisations such as these.

For example, both the MHRA and WHO receive significant funding from Pharmaceutical companies. Furthermore, both organisations receive considerable lobbying from those Pharmaceutical companies, and they are not alone in this.

‘Research’ conducted by the BMA is also funded by the various Pharamaceutical companies with a vested interest.

As mentioned previously in this document, Pharmaceutical Companies have a natural opposition to ecigarettes as they directly compete against the NRT, gum and patches (that have such a poor success rate) that are manufactured and sold FOR PROFIT by the Pharmaceutical companies. As such, it is in the interest of those Pharmaceutical companies to keep ecigarettes off the market. The internet is awash with information demonstrating that this is exactly what is happening.


Regulation

As stated previously, the sale of ecigarettes are already covered by a vast array of current legislation. However, as ecigarettes are not a medicine, then they cannot be regulated as a medicine (which is what the EU has recently ruled on).

Despite this, it might surprise the First Minister to discover that ecigarette users would actually welcome some lighter touch regulation, such as:

• Make it illegal to sell ecigarette products to minors: The ecigarette industry has a code of ethics that forbids the sale of ecigarette products to minors. Unfortunately, as the Health Minister discovered, there are a few ‘bad-eggs’ out there that do sell to minors. In this respect, it can be argued that eCigarettes should be treated in the same way as alcohol. That is, make it an offence to sell ecigarettes to minors in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to minors
• Regulation of the preparation/content of eliquid: This does NOT mean limiting the variety of flavours or the concentration of nicotine content. What many ecigarette users would like to see is for the manufacture of eLiquid to be regulated in the same way as the food industry is. That is, that the eLiquid is made in clean hygienic conditions and that ALL eliquid contains a full list of the ingredients used in its manufacture. One of the most innovative ideas I have seen for this is the use of a QR code on the side of each bottle which, when scanned through a smartphone, would immediately take you to a URL on the internet which lists what ingredients were used, in what quantity, when it was made etc


The actual ecigarette devices are already regulated by a number of manufacturing, trading and consumer laws to ensure safety. Therefore, the actual ecigarette devices do not require any further regulation.



So am I a Health Professional ?

No I am not. But I am an ecigarette user that has successfully switched from tobacco products and am reaping the health benefits of switching to ecigarettes


So why should you take notice of me you are probably asking yourself ?

Well, don’t take my word for it. As promised earlier, here is a list of quotes from some of the most eminent health and science professionals on the planet and what they said (all of the following can be verified):


“Inhaling nicotine cannot be nearly as dangerous as inhaling nicotine plus thousands of other chemicals, including more than 40 carcinogens.” Professor Michael Siegel, associated Professor at the Boston University of Public Health

“If all the smokers in Britain stopped smoking cigarettes and started smoking e-cigarettes we would save 5 million deaths in people who are alive today.” Professor John Britton, Royal College of Physicians

"I think there's absolutely no doubt that it [the e-cigarette] is a safer alternative to regular cigarettes." Professor Carl Phillips, former Professor at the University of Alberta, and researcher in the field of tobacco harm reduction

"If there is anyone who believes cigarettes are no more hazardous than e-cigarettes I’d recommend a remedial course in basic sciences." David Sweanor, former advisor to the WHO on tobacco control

“E-Cigarettes are, ‘exactly what the tobacco companies have been afraid of all these years’ David Sweanor, former advisor to the WHO on tobacco control

E-Cigarettes are "harmless: inhaled or exhaled." Dr Murray Laugesen, Former principal medical officer in the New Zealand department of health and winner of a WHO medal for work in the field of tobacco control

“If we get all tobacco smokers to switch from regular cigarettes to electronic cigarettes, we would eventually reduce the US death toll from more than 400,000 a year to less than 4,000, maybe as low as 400.” Dr Joel Nitzkin, Chair of the Tobacco Control Task Force for the American Association of Public Health Physicians

“There’s no doubt it [The Electronic Cigarette] can save many lives and hundreds of millions of pounds.” David Halpern, UK Government Nudge Unit

“Inhaling mist from the e-cigarette is rated several orders of magnitude (100 to 1000 times) less dangerous than smoking tobacco cigarettes.” Dr Murray Laugesen: Health New Zealand

“In comparison to tobacco products they are safer by several orders of magnitude.” Deborah Arnott, Action on Smoking and Health

“I’m in favour of e-cigarettes for the same reasons as I’m in favour of snus. Nicotine is a widely used drug and there is no reason to restrict its availability to only the most dangerous delivery systems. Plenty of reasons to allow smokers to adopt this alternative.” Clive Bates, former Head of ASH (coincidentally, Clive was also Director-General at Welsh Government)

"Considering the hazards associated with cigarette smoking, currently available data suggest that electronic cigarettes are far less harmful, and substituting tobacco with electronic cigarettes may be beneficial to health.” Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos, Research fellow at Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Greece

“ The vapor produced by an electronic cigarette contains mainly nicotine and its vector (propylene-glycol, glycerine, water, alcohol, and flavourings), none of the toxic substances from tobacco smoke.” Jacques Le Houezec, Consultant in public health and tobacco dependence, France


Remember, Vapers are Voters. Stop persecuting those of us who enjoy ecigarettes and enjoy the health benefits they provide. HANDS OFF OUR ECIGARETTES.


Yours sincerely,
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Jester2109's post
06-01-2014, 01:09 PM
Post: #2
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
Phew that was a long read, buy "my" what a cracker of a letter. Well done Wink
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-01-2014, 04:24 PM
Post: #3
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
+1 from me, excellent letter, wish I could come up with something like that. Interesting to see what the responce would be
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-01-2014, 10:38 AM
Post: #4
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
Wow Jester... that letter is superb!

Like the others who have posted, Im keen to hear what reaction you get from them..

Well done !!!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-01-2014, 01:40 PM
Post: #5
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
Thankyou all, though I must admit it was not all my own work as I got some help from our Ms C_Sea in drafting this up. Anyway, according to the Welsh Assembly website, they endeavour to answer all enquiries within 17 days. But as Xmas has been in the middle, that timeline has been messed up. That said, I will be surprised if I do get a reply from Carwyn Jones, but if it happens I will post it up here.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 02:13 PM
Post: #6
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
Great letter mate! Couldn't have put it better myself. Everything you said is "the truth", that can't be disputed, so i'm really looking forward to seeing what sort of reply you get. It will probably take them a while to formulate a response to a letter of that quality mate. Nice one! Smile

Ecigs: A Choice not a Therapy. A lifestyle not a Treatment. Educate and Liberate.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 03:42 PM
Post: #7
Big Grin RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
Bravo! Author! Author! Oh, wait ... Tongue

If you can't get there by a comfortable road, don't go.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 04:12 PM
Post: #8
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
Well, it is now exactly a month since they received the above letter. Guess what ? Nada. Nothing. As expected, they have chosen to ignore me. Maybe they are scrambling around in vain trying to counter all the FACTS I gave them lol
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2014, 09:10 AM
Post: #9
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
I think you're more likely right about them ignoring you tbh.

Accountability my arse.

Dave's Tackle Box - Sundays @ 9pm UK
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2014, 11:21 AM
Post: #10
RE: Welsh Assembly Misinformation
To my surprise, I have had a reply from the Welsh Assembly this morning.

However, two things to bear in mind:

1. They couldn't be arsed to answer me themselves and passed it along to one of their juniors to reply

2. They obviously did NOT read my original letter (above) as they keep banging on about it being a medicinal product and that is it 'unregulated'

Anyway, the letter itself is the standard reply TBH, and is the usual complete bullshit. The last paragraph amused me the most as they recommended that I use Stop Smoking Wales to quit smoking - conveniently overlooking the fact that I HAVE already successfully quit smoking - 18 months ago. I am thinking of replying again and pointing out that they have patently NOT read my letter and that they are talking through their proverbial arses !!

However, for the amusement of all, the following is the reply I received:


Thankyou for your letter of 14 December addressed to the First Minister of Wales regarding e-cigarette legislation. Your letter was forwarded for the attention of Mark Drakeford AM, Minister for Health and Social Services, and I have been asked to reply on this occasion.

The Welsh Government is aware that there has been a rapid increase in the use, availability and promotion of e-cigarettes. Whilst we acknowledge that some people have had success in using them to quit smoking, we are concerned about the dangers of creating a new addiction, as well as the quality, safety and efficacy of the available products. At present, e-cigarettes are unregulated products and are not licensed as aids to smoking cessation.

Whilst the regulation of medicines is not a developed matter, the Welsh Government was pleased that in the final discussions on the revised Tobacco Products Directive (TPD), EU Member States agreed that nations which regulate nicotine containing products (NCPs), including e-cigarettes as medicines, could continue to do so. This will ensure there are controls regarding safety, quality and efficacy of NCPs making medicinal claims, as well as controls on how they are marketed and age of sale.

We also welcomed the decision to extend the scope of the Directive to include e-cigarettes not regulated as medicines and to regulate their safety through a number of safeguards such as maximum nicotine levels. The revised TPD is expected to be formally adopted in early 2014 and we look forward to working with the Department of Health to implement its provisions.

In the meantime, we recommend consumers exercise a great deal of caution if considering using these products. We also urge people to speak to their GP or contact Stop Smoking Wales on 0800 085 2219 for help to stop smoking, rather than relying on e-cigarettes alone.
I hope you have found my reply helpful.

Your sincerely,

Paul Haynes
Government Business Team
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Welsh MEPs Jester2109 0 10,064 13-02-2014 11:03 AM
Last Post: Jester2109



User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)